I’ve been reading a ton of ebooks lately and to be honest they’ve all began to blur in my mind. (And no, I’m NOT talking about the books I mentioned the other day. I still haven’t read them yet.) Maybe I’m getting old (wg), but it seems like things are being thrown into books for ’shock value’ and/or ’salable’ reasons.
I realize that BDSM, M/M action, Anal, and Menages are big right now, but why does every book have to have them? I can’t tell you how many times I’m reading along and then bam out of nowhere there’s an anal scene, a menage, or whatever. Nothing leads up to the scene. It’s just dropped into the book. WTF?
I find this trend particularly disturbing when the authors have created an abused character. It’s like all the years of physical/sexual abuse can be wiped away with a menage or by tying the person to a bed. Yeah, I don’t think so. I literally cringe when this happens because I can’t get past the mental scarring that’s taking place.
I know people do strange things for love, but I’ve never known anyone to get over their ‘discomfort’ of certain acts quite so quickly as they do in these stories. Also disturbing is the fact that the hero seems to be doing these things for the heroine’s benefit.:-O How in the hell does having a menage/gang bang with his best friend/brother/posse benefit her? Please explain this to me.
I want to make it clear that I’m not talking about stories where the characters have fantasized about having a menage/anal/whatever. I’m talking about the stories that seem to be one thing and turn into another. The old bait and switch.
Let me know what you think. I could be way off base. It wouldn’t be the first time. *ggg*
September 1st, 2006
Jordan, I hear you loud and clear girl! I haven’t been reading ebooks lately because of the ‘trends’…I prefer a lot of story with my sex, and not a string of sex scenes one right after another with all kinds of shit thrown in..
by Vivi Anna September 1st, 2006 at 1:45 pmVivi, I’m glad I am not the only one noticing this trend. It’s actually rather disappointing. I’m careful which authors I pick up now. I read all the reviews in order to avoid ‘unexpected’ events. *ggg*
by Jordan September 1st, 2006 at 5:30 pmI love to read M/M and BDSM, but puhleeze, it ought to make some friggin’ sense within story context. What you describe sounds like very bad fanfiction.
by Gabriele September 1st, 2006 at 6:58 pmGabriele, I wish I could say it was bad fan fic, but it’s not. It is some of the new releases out there. I know everyone’s taste in erotic romances differs. Some people really dig these elements in a story. I get that. But when they’re dropped into a book to up sales or because you think that’s what everyone is looking for, then there’s a problem.
by Jordan September 1st, 2006 at 7:50 pmNope, it’s not just you. A friend and I were actually chatting about this a little while ago. I’ve seen it a lot from EC releases in particular; some other pubs aren’t quite as bad about it, in my experience.
I mean, I like BDSM and menages, but as a person who is involved in BDSM and polyamory, I find the way much of it is portrayed in books downright insulting. Especially when the so-called “dom” is an insensitive prick that no sub with any sense at all would let anywhere close, much less give up full control.
And this is ignoring the “it makes no sense for these characters to do this” sorta story…. *grumbles*
by Nonny September 1st, 2006 at 10:55 pmI have to agree with you. There’s been a few stories I’ve read recently where suddenly there’s an anal scene that is way out of context for the book. I’m with Vivi. I like lots of plot in my books rather than a string of sex scenes.
by Shelley September 2nd, 2006 at 3:32 amI *totally* agree with you, Jordan! I’m so relieved that I’m not the one feeling that way…
Sometimes it seems to me as if writers have been looking at some notional checklist of sexual variations, and they feel they have to tick all the boxes, whether these particular acts are relevant to their story or not.
I mean… there are plenty of books where these various kinks are relevant. When the book is about people how have a kinky mindset and are into experimentation. But there are too many stories around where the characters are basically ordinary, vanilla people and boing, suddenly they’re doing something ultra pervy without any ‘development’ towards it…
And on top of that, sex in a story can be transgressive and dangerous and exciting without it having to be anal or menage or bondage or whatever… Well written mindgames can be far more thrilling than ‘mechanical’ kinkiness…
Oops, I’ll climb off my soapbox now!
by wendywoo September 2nd, 2006 at 5:07 amNo you’re not the only one. I went from checking several ebook publisher on a weekly basis for their new releases and buying at the very least 2 books (per week) to checking every couple of months and most times not buying anything.
Of the 4 ebooks I’ve read in the last year. Only one was a keeper (Midnight Man by Lisa Marie *can’t remember her last name*). One I sent to a friend, then deleted it. The writing, worldbuilding was good, but I’m not a fan of the dominant/kick-ass heroine who near emasculates the hero.)
The other two books I didn’t even finish, just deleted them. One of them had a friggin scene (ginger root inserted in anus). why? what was the point –re story, emotional arc– of including that, except for shock/titilation?
by Jaq September 2nd, 2006 at 6:56 amLol Jordan, I know it isn’t fanfiction, but the whole ‘abuse is suddenly healed by kinky sex’ thing reminded me of all those stories where Legolas is gang raped by Orcs and Aragorn heals him with hot sex.
You have to browse through a veritable slushpile to find the few good LOTR fanfic stories.
by Gabriele September 2nd, 2006 at 8:04 amI really love intriguing plots and compelling characters along with hot romantic sex scenes. That’s what I try to write.
I figure on the erotic romance spectrum I’m on the vanilla end, barely erotic enough to squeek in the ER door, not on the carnally super hot menage anal end. I tried writing a menage story. It didn’t work. I guess my brain doen’t work that way.
I do wonder where I’ll go to submit if the trend continues, leaving writers like me on the edge. Tone it down and do more mainstream romance? Or figure out how to spice it up, with out sacrificing characters or plot?? I know there are writers that can do it, but I’m not sure I’m one of them!
by Becca Furrow September 2nd, 2006 at 8:20 amFunny you are on this topic, my group of “reader friends” and I were talking about it at work the other night. We all decided that some sex in a story is good if there is a chemistry going on, but even then, if you can’t skip the sex scenes and still have a killer plot going on, the book isn’t worth reading. Alot of the new stuff is that way, just sex scene after sex scene like the author couldn’t find a plot and had to meet a deadline. I realize that sex sells, but I get bored with it if it is every other chapter. And the kinky stuff is fine, providing there is a lead in to it, but that is the most boring of all. I find myself reading it and instead of thinking that they are getting connected and etc, I am wonder if and why the author chose this crap. Are they trying to live through their own unfulfilled fantasies? And if so, then I find them icky. I don’t want to share in that. My friends agree with me. One of them even said that they embarrass her. This is a very stable person and for her to say that, I know that they were just crap.
by deb September 2nd, 2006 at 9:22 amI hear ya, Jordan. I’m having the same ‘dissolusionment’ myself lately in eBooks, erotic romance contest entries and even some print erotic romance books. I just turned my first erotic romance in for Kensington last month and I remember being very careful to have good motivation for every sex scene, because the very thing you’re talking about has fast become one of my biggest pet peeves in this genre! Enough ranting - back to writing
by Tina Gerow September 2nd, 2006 at 10:15 amNonny, You have an interesting perspective because you live the lifestyle portrayed in a lot of these novels. I think most of the people writing these stories have never experienced any of the things they’re writing. (That tends to be the case with writers. We make everything up.;) They are just throwing it in because they’re told it sells.
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 1:22 pmShelley, I like the story to have a plot too. The plot doesn’t even have to be intricate as long as it’s there and entertains me. What I don’t want is an endless string of meaningless sex scenes thrown in there to pad the word count.
It’s sad, but I never used to skip love scenes in a book. Now I do.
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 1:25 pmAmen Wendy! I think a lot of the problem comes from writers being told what is selling, what is hot. People who wouldn’t think about adding certain acts to their books are throwing them in because they know that will jump their sales numbers. I can’t fault people for trying to make a living. I’ve always been out of step in that regard at the epubs. I have tried to write ‘what’s selling’, but it always ends up twisted somehow. I think writers should write what they enjoy, not what others expect.
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 1:29 pmJaq, I used to buy more of them too. Now I go and read the blurbs and the warnings. I’m tired of ’surprises’ in the stories.
You’re talking about Lisa Marie Rice. I have that book, but haven’t read it yet. I’ll have to put it on my ebook reader.
Ewww…on the ginger root. You’re right about shock value. I think the last thing I read that inserted something for shock value was a candy cane.
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 1:44 pmOh Gabriele, Now I’m going to have to go poke out my mind’s eye to get rid of the picture of the LOTR’s reference. LOL!
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 1:45 pmBecca, Having super hot love scenes doesn’t negate the need for a strong plot. In fact, if anything, you should have a stronger plot surrounding such a story. I’m as bad as the next person when it comes to lazy writing. It’s something I have to get over quickly, if I want to remain published.
I don’t think you have to worry about your story fitting into the scorching market. If you write a good story, it WILL sell. Besides, the erotic romance market has hit a saturation point. My guess is starting next year you’ll see a lot of erotic romance lines fold. Write what you love to write and don’t worry about the hot trend. Change is in the air.
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 1:49 pmDeb, I don’t think most authors are writing about unfulfilled fantasies. Goodness knows I don’t. I think most have been told to heat up their work and this is how they’re choosing to do it.
I recently turned in two manuscripts and both were returned with notes that said I should add another love scene. Did I think that the stories warranted another love scene? No. But I didn’t have much choice, since the request came from my editor. If you think I’m the only one receiving these type of notes, you are mistaken. Writers are being told to make things hotter or add more sex or whatever, when they turn their stories in. I think that’s why we’re ending up with at least ’some’ of the scenes that seem out of place. It’s frustrating.
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 1:55 pmTina, I judged one erotic romance contest and it was my last. I couldn’t believe how much crap was shoved into the entries to ‘make’ them erotic. It was so bad.
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 1:56 pmOuch Jordan, that sucks to be obliged to add in love scenes you don’t think really belong in your books.
by Gabriele September 2nd, 2006 at 2:47 pmGabriele, Welcome to the world of publishing. *ggg*
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 2:55 pmJordan,
That’s precisely the impression I get. Menages/group sex “sell,” anal “sells,” BDSM “sells,” etc. … so just toss them in, right?
It really pisses me off because the amount of downright false information that’s put forward by these books is astounding. People involved in either kink or poly still have huge issues with acceptance from the mainstream culture, and books that further misconceptions only make it more difficult to educate the general public. But that’s my activist side speaking
This isn’t to say all erotic fiction featuring these subjects is like that. I know there’s some very good stuff out there.
These days, if I’m looking at a novel that involves BSDM (not so much with menages, because people for some reason seem to be less open about poly than kink), I do some background checking on the author. If she’s open about an involvement in the BDSM lifestyle/community, then I’ll pick it up, because chances are good she’s got her head screwed on straight.
Otherwise, I either go review hunting or don’t pick up the book. It’s not always a guarantee, but it weeds out the worst “offenders.”
by Nonny September 2nd, 2006 at 3:18 pmNonny, I don’t think you’re the only one who’s gotten much pickier over the years. More and more readers are doing research on books before they buy them. You have to, if you want to try to get a good read. :-/
by Jordan Summers September 2nd, 2006 at 4:30 pmWell, I’m so much happier about being vanilla now. : D I’m a firm believer in the idea that it isn’t the sex act that makes it hot, it’s chemistry, emotion, conflict. There are only so many sex acts and when you’ve done them all, what’s left that can be original and different? Your characters and plot.
by Charlene September 2nd, 2006 at 5:48 pmLegolas and Aragorn??! :-O
You’re right, Jordan. Have seen a lot of it, and it ain’t pretty, lol. And I’ve seen a lot of readers complaining about it on various message boards.
I’ve also had an editor suggest adding more sex, and making an existing scene hotter. The idea, of course, is to sell, and everyone’s convinced that sex sells (and it does). The TRICK, of course, is realizing that it’s GOOD sex that sells BETTER–INTERESTING sex,not necessarily how unusual it is–at least, in my opinion.
by raine September 2nd, 2006 at 6:27 pmCharli, You’re right. Tension goes a long, long way. It’s all in the mind. Hope you’re feeling better.
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 7:36 pmRaine, I agree. I think a lot of people have lost sight of that fact. It’s not the frequency, but the quality.
by Jordan September 2nd, 2006 at 7:37 pmI think everyone’s pretty much said what I would - I like lots of sex, I like hot sex, but I want a good story with it, not just scenes stuck in for the heck of it. It all has to make sense. And the sexual healing stuff doesn’t. Thank you, though, for that simply wonderful image of Legalos and Aragorn that is now stuck in my head. NOT! LOL
by Bailey Stewart September 2nd, 2006 at 9:56 pm>>Well written mindgames can be far more thrilling than ‘mechanical’ kinkiness.
Wendy said it so well I’m not sure I could add anything except thanks for the reminder (cuz I’m struggling with a book proposal right now LOL).
Jaq I read that article about ginger root –yes there’s an article on the net about it LOL
Jordan pass that mental stick for my eye as well!
by Cece September 3rd, 2006 at 6:55 amYou are so right, Jordan. There has to be a reason for the scene to be there, not just dropped in out of the middle of nowhere. And I hear you on the emotionally scarred heroine. There’s just no way she’s going to jump right into group sex and bdsm.
by Cheyenne McCray September 3rd, 2006 at 7:03 amJordan - You said so well what many of us have been thinking. It’s not always easy to be the one to start the conversation, so congrats for doing so.
The “shock value” issue is a big one. This who-can-push-the-boundaries-the-farthest contest that seems to be going on eventually will hurt the genre. Good writing not shocking writing should be the goal. I have to admit that the “menage will help you overcome trauma” theory frustrates me. It feels too much like having a bunch of sex in a book just for the sake of having a bunch of sex in a book. I want it all to mean something…::sigh::
by HelenKay September 3rd, 2006 at 7:37 amI guess we saw this coming, yes? The pendulum always swings, and now it’s nearing its furthest point in the direction of “give ‘em everything, all the time, so long as it’s hot and involves the exchange of bodily fluids.” The inevitable correction in the other direction will tighten the market, cut the chaff from the wheat and ultimately be good for everyone…even if it makes the market tougher for those of us still fighting to break in.
*sigh*
by Selah March September 3rd, 2006 at 7:59 amI guess we saw this coming, yes? The pendulum always swings, and now it’s nearing its furthest point in the direction of “give ‘em everything, all the time, so long as it’s hot and involves the exchange of bodily fluids.” The inevitable correction in the other direction will tighten the market, cut the chaff from the wheat and ultimately be good for everyone…even if it makes the market tougher for those of us still fighting to break in.
*sigh*
by Selah March September 3rd, 2006 at 9:30 amSorry for the double post, Jordan. Refreshed the page without realizing. My bad.
by Selah March September 3rd, 2006 at 9:46 amI think I’m just tired of the “we have to do this threesome/backdoor/upside-down/hanging from the Empire State Building sex scene because if we don’t, 1) the city and all its inhabitants will be destroyed; 2) the gates of Hell will be thrown open forever; 3) I am possessed by a demon who has to have sex every fifteen minutes with different partners and it’s not my fault or 4) the bad [fill in antagonist’s description] will kill us.
I understand the nice girl image must be PRESERVED AT ALL COST, but, you know, really. Why can’t they just be like bunnies ’cause they’re extremely hot for each other, or for the group, or for whatever, and that’s reason enough?
I recently read my first m/m erotic romance e-book and yet again there was a “We have to do it or The Bad Man ™ is going to kill us” sex scene between the two guys. What surprised me was the overwhelming revulsion one of the participants had for guy/guy sex and yet five minutes into the forced-to-do-it scene he was having the time of his life. Totally blew me out of the story, no pun intended.
Sorry for the soap box rant, Jordan. I’m not really here, either; I’m off writing.
by PBW September 3rd, 2006 at 10:44 amBailey, It wasn’t me who mentioned LOTR’s it was Gabriele. Blame her. *ggg*
by jordan September 3rd, 2006 at 4:51 pmCece, I agree. Wendy put it so well. I think it’s been on a lot of authors’ minds lately. Particularly those of us who started writing erotic romances years ago.
by jordan September 3rd, 2006 at 4:53 pmChey, I think a lot of people have forgotten that the sex scenes are supposed to move the story forward, not just fill space. As for the abused heroine, that’s just unforgivable.
by jordan September 3rd, 2006 at 4:54 pmHelenKay, I’ve been thinking about this subject for a while, but didn’t want to appear like a traitor to the cause. I just got so frustrated over some of the things that I’ve been reading that I had to cry uncle. I do think you’re right about the ‘push the envelope at all costs’ hurting the genre. It’s never good when plot and storytelling are sacrificed in order to fit another outrageous sex scene. But like I said earlier, it’s not necessarily the authors who are behind this trend. Publishers want scenes pushed too.
by Jordan September 3rd, 2006 at 7:31 pmSelah, I think you’re absolutely correct when you say that the market is about to tighten in the ‘hot’ arena. Only quality will survive. It’s going to make a lot of people VERY unhappy.
by Jordan September 3rd, 2006 at 7:33 pmPBW, I was about to say that you aren’t supposed to be here. *ggg* I know it’s weird how everything has to be forced. The hero doesn’t really want to have anal with another man, but he has to. The heroine doesn’t really want to have a menage, but she must to save the universe. It’s always interesting that no one just wants to have a sexual encounter because they enjoy sex. Strange how some things change and a lot of things stay the same. (wg) So much for advancement in sexual freedom. Snort.
by Jordan September 3rd, 2006 at 7:40 pmJordan, are you reading the books on my flash drive? Because I’m coming to the same conclusion. There’s one BDSM Futuristic series I like because folks have wild kinky sex because they want to! Everything else is BECAUSE: I need to save universe, galaxy, farm, the whales. It’s tedious.I read a few recently where out the blue, whammo, nutty sex, as if it was beamed into the story by accident. I’m finding this in print books, too, though. It’s as if the author forgets that scene should advance story, that means ALL scenes. You can have a ton of sex that advances and fits into story, but you have to carefully craft that. Do you think too many things are being rushed to publication?
by Ursula September 4th, 2006 at 11:35 amUrsula, I think rushing to publication is one of the problems, but I think the real problems are pressure from the publishers and self-imposed pressure from the writers themselves. Like I said earlier, writers are being ‘told’ to make things hotter/more graphic/add additional love scenes by the publishers (both print and ebook). There’s also the pressure that comes from knowing what’s currently selling. Writers have to ask themselves (particularly writers trying to ‘live’ on their income), should I write what I want or should I write what’s selling? If you’re smart, you can figure out how to do both, but it’s definitely a challenge.
by Jordan September 4th, 2006 at 12:33 pmI am ALL for hot sex scenes, believe me, but I’m also a firm believer that if I’m reading a sex scene in a novel (as opposed to an erotic short story) there has to be at least one other thing going on during the sex or through the sex. The sex should mean something or show something in addition to the fact that these two people like each other and want to go at it like bunnies. If nothing happens during the sex, some decision or change or revelation or whatnot…then that’s not the sex scene to show on screen. I want to see the sex scene (or the part of the sex scene) where something in addition to orgasms happens, or where I learn something about the characters that I didn’t know before.
I want to see/write the sex that means something (doesn’t have to be love, btw) to the story…if I can skip it and not lose any info about character or plot….then it’s probably going to get Tab A/Slot B pretty quickly, which is cool and all, but it becomes a lot like going into detail about a great meal they ate. Not that it can’t be enjoyable to read about, but as someone said above (I think) there are only so many permutations of the various tabs and slots and randomly sticking it in the butt (to me at least) isn’t variety as much as say…they really want to do it and don’t have pregnancy protection and she’s like “why not the butt?” and he’s like, “OMG I did not know you were so kinky, awesome!” Then we have problem solving skills and character development with the kinky variety.
by romblogreader September 5th, 2006 at 11:58 amRomance Blog Reader, I think everyone is pretty fed up with the pointless tacked on scenes. You created a perfect example of forwarding the plot by the example you just used. Bravo.
by Jordan September 5th, 2006 at 1:41 pmLook what happens when I go on vacation, the interesting dialogue just takes off! I’m glad you brought up this particular topic Jordan, because like many of the other commentors on your blog I’m fed up with sex to save the _________ (fill in the blank) or sex because we’ve gone 50 pages without a sex scene. I for one enjoy hot sex scenes but only if they 1) forward the storyline in some manner 2) are sex for sex sake and used to develop the characters relationship in some fashion and 3) aren’t completely out of place or forced because there needs to be a sex scene right now. I have read many novels and stories that had little to no sex but had some of the hottest couples/relationships/storylines. Hello anyone ever heard of Lizzy and Darcy? Whoever wrote the screenplay for the BBC miniseries was a god. I guess my point is that I love a solid plotline above a sex scene. If the sex scene fits into the story, relationship and circumstances than it will blend with the plot and help move the story along.
by Shannon September 5th, 2006 at 3:10 pmShannon, I’m embarrassed to say that I am a writer who was told to go back and ‘add’ something sexual because I’d gone too many pages without anything like that happening. Hanging head in shame.
by Jordan September 5th, 2006 at 10:12 pmJordan there’s no shame but I do have to ask, how do you/we buck the system? Not that I’ve ever been asked to add to, but there it is.
And FWIW both Hands On and Kink are about women who have sex cuz they like it. *g* Matter of fact, in Kink it’s the hero who has reservations, not the heroine, and I was really worried it was too sex-heavy but my editor didn’t say a word other than I get to keep my title LOL *blush*
by Cece September 6th, 2006 at 6:42 amCece, I think it all comes back to the story. We have to make sure it’s as strong as it can be given the page count and word length. I also think that at some point in the future every author is going to have to put a line in the sand and refuse to cross it. The lines will be as individual as the authors, but if we don’t stand up for quality or quantity, who will?
I truly believe there won’t be a spot for me at several publishing houses within the next year or so, IF the trend of ‘throw everything at the reader’ continues. It’s something I’ve accepted and I’m prepared to move on.
by Jordan September 6th, 2006 at 9:44 amJordan: re: being told to add sex scenes…that intrigues me and makes me nervous as an aspiring writer. I understand that every book’s individual, and having a formula can be restricting, but I’d hope that if my publisher wanted, say, 4 sex scenes per book they’d let me know in advance so I could work the story so that happened, rather than letting me know after the fact and making me need to shoehorn it in. Did you have a feeling of, “why didn’t you tell me I needed X amount of sex from the beginning,” or was it a case of something else?
by romblogreader September 6th, 2006 at 10:38 amRomance Blog Reader, No, I didn’t have any ‘feelings’ about the story beyond thinking that more was not needed. I put in the amount of sex scenes I think a story needs. It’s not a set number. The book I finished a few months back really has only one and a half sex scenes in it. I didn’t think it needed anymore. The one I’m currently writing will probably have one, but there’s a chance it won’t. It depends on the story needs. Unfortunately, it’s not quite as simple as asking ahead of time.
by Jordan September 6th, 2006 at 12:43 pmJordan, I’ll admit when I first read this thread, I didn’t really understand what you were talking about. The examples you cited haven’t been my experience, but then I haven’t read just a whole lot of the type of stories we’re talking about. I’m picky anyway.
But ironically enough, just last night, I DID read a book that felt like it was ripped from your blog post lol.
Until then I’d never read a “OMG we have to have a threesome to save the world” book before. Nor had I read a book where the author literally gives me whiplash by introducing the third character out of the blue for no other reason than to complete the hot menage.
It was annoying because in the space of one day the heroine was in love with our hero but as soon as she lays eyes on the second guy, suddenly she’s all aflutter.
Then when it’s revealed they must indulge in the sex to save the world, they are all accepting and happy happy joy joy.
wtf?
I don’t mind reading just about anything as long as the author has given me believable reasons, a history leading up to the event, the characters want it, fantasize about it, but to drop the anvil on the reader by throwing it in just for the sake of *having* the hot menage….it frustrated me to no end. I started skimming and couldn’t get back into the story after that
by Sharon/Maya September 7th, 2006 at 5:15 amAnd to think I didn’t really have a strong opinion on your post until reading this book *g* I’m just glad it was a first and not a long string of this type of scenario.
Sharon/Maya, I guess I’ve just been making ‘lucky’ picks. *ggg* At least you know what I’m talking about now. Sorry you had to find out the hard way.
Hopefully it’ll be your first and last surprise read.
by Jordan September 7th, 2006 at 12:53 pmSave the world sex?
Exactly how does sex save the world… (currently racking my brain to make sure i’ve never written save the world sex)
I understand what you’re getting at, Jordan. I love a good erotic romance, but if the story doesn’t hold together, don’t waste my time.
by shiloh September 8th, 2006 at 7:08 pmShiloh, That’s pretty much what it boils down to…give me a story first and foremost.
by Jordan September 9th, 2006 at 6:56 pm